This file contains an un-edited* transcript of an email conversation I had this past April with Peter Olotka, one of the designers of Avalon Hill's bookshelf game, Dune. I offer it as an additional resource for establishing agreed upon rule interpretations for FTF and PBEM Dune games. It's worth remarking that Peter was not involved in the design or testing of the Optional or Advanced rules. Those were created after he handed the game off to AH. For this reason, my questions to Peter only cover Basic rules. Peter has given me permission to destribute his remarks. Feel free to distribute this document in any form, provided you leave its contents entirely unchanged. Peter has also asked me to obscure his email address. I am happy to collect other questions and forward them to him. If you are not a member already, I suggest you visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DuneBoardGame for discussions, files, and links about the game, including FTF and PBEM. Jeff Hoover hoovman2000@hotmail.com Copyright September 10, 2001 by Jeff Hoover * I have removed footers, added message dividers, and removed Peter's email address. The contents of our discussion remain unchanged. Acknowledgements: I wrote my list of questions based on my own face-to-face experiences, the other players of the (currently in progress) play-by-email game "Cherem" hosted by Mike Haravath, ideas and questions from many members of the PBEM community on the Yahoo Club and Group, and Brad Johnson's 2001 World Boardgaming Championships (WBC) "Dune Rules Clarifications". Thank you to the entire Dune community, including Yahoo for hosting the previous Dune Board Game Club and the current Group, and Stephen Grubb for founding the Group. ============================================================================================== ============================================================================================== From: "Jeff Hoover" To: xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx Subject: Do you know of a Dune rules expert? Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:04:50 -0500 Hello, I understand you were involved in the design of Avalon Hill's 1979 Dune game. I was wondering if you knew anyone who could give definitive answers to subtle rule questions. ============================================================================================== From: Peter Olotka Reply-To: xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx To: Jeff Hoover Subject: Re: Do you know of a Dune rules expert? Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:54:56 -0500 Jeff, I am one of the designers - but I suspect your questions could be better answered by Brad Johnson He participates in an online DUNE game - sort of like play by mail on line and is more current with rules. After we designed the game Avalon Hill added a lot of optional and advanced rules that we didn't write and really never played. Peter Olotka ============================================================================================== From: "Jeff Hoover" To: xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx Subject: Re: Do you know of a Dune rules expert? Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:09:09 -0500 Thank you for suggesting I contact Brad Johnson. I guess I didn't ask my question very well. I'm looking for more of an *authority*, someone who knows the game well and had some official connection to the game. I belong to an online club and there are different interpretations among many of us long-time players. Jeff Hoover ============================================================================================== From: Peter Olotka Reply-To: xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx To: Jeff Hoover Subject: Re: Do you know of a Dune rules expert? Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:19:15 -0500 You can send me your questions and I'll take an official stab. ============================================================================================== From: "Jeff Hoover" To: xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx Subject: Dune Rules Questions Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:39:40 -0500 Peter, here goes. I know there's a lot. Thanks again for looking at these. Jeff 1. Under 6.a.5 on the Player Aid Pad, may a player play a Karama card to make another player's treachery card purchase be at no charge? 2. Under 6.a.5 on the Player Aid Pad, when playing a Karama card to bid for and buy a card without paying for it, is the players bid bound by the number of spice s/he has, or can s/he bid more than s/he has? 3. Under 6.a.6 on the Player Aid Pad, may a player play a Karama card to cause another's shipment to be paid to the bank at Guild cost (half rate)? 4. In 6.a.1 on the Player Aid Pad, what does "prevents Atr. from seeing the future" include besides what Q/A XXV.A.4 says about blocking viewing of all cards up for bid? Looking at the top card of the spice deck? Looking at a component of the battle plan? Can a player not involved in the battle in question block Atr from looking at a battle plan anyhow? 5 In 6.a.1-4 on the Player Aid Pad, when a Karama card 'prevents' an action, must the card be played before the action occurs or can it be played after the action is announced? For instance: + Atreides says "Show me your leader" and I play Karama and say "I don't think so" but if Atreides says "Show me your weapon" I won't bother to play my card? Or do I have to play the card at the beginning of the battle and say: "In this battle I'm preventing Atr from seeing the future?" 6. This came up in a game I recently played: Can a TruthTrance be used to ask "If I move tokens into Arrakeen this turn, will you attack Tuek's Seitch on your shipping/movement?" or other questions about the future or intentions? If yes, can a player say "I can't say yes or no"? What happens to the card then? Is it wasted or does the player keep it? I a player answers a "Do you intend to..." question yes, is s/he bound to it? What about answering yes to a "Will you..." question"? 7. Another one from a recent game: A player deliberatelty plays Lasegun and shield in a battle, intending to cause the explosion, but his leader is in his opponent's pay as a traitor. Is the explosion averted by the traitor being exposed? 8. Can the Hajr card be used to move another player's tokens or only the tokens of the player playing the card? 9. Can the Ghola card be used to revive a leader or tokens belonging to another player or only those of the player playing the card? If the answer is anyone, do the tokens/leader go into the the card player's reserves or the reserves of the player whose color they are? 10. In rule 3.E.2, in a game with less than 6 players, are traitors drawn from all 30 leader disks or only from the leader disks of the players actually in that game? 11. In a longer game but when the treachery deck runs out, should it be shuffled, or when cards are discarded are they gone forever? (Obviously weather control stays on the board when played, so it's not shuffled.) 12. In Rule IX.B, must all players revive tokens before the first player ships/moves, or can I wait to revive based on what players before me ship or move? 13. Can weather control be played after the normal storm movement has been revealed, or must it be announced before the normal movement has been revealed? 14. Does a Guild/Fremen alliance allow fremen to ship tokens off-planet? If yes, do those tokens have to be shipped back on-planet for spice, or can they come in within 2 territories of the Great Flat? 15. Do the Fremen have to bring their tokens onto the board within 2 territories of the Great Flat and in a territory on the equator, given that they are supposed to be coming from the the “back side” of Arrakis, or would, for example, the polar sink be a legal “shipment” for Fremen? ============================================================================================== From: Peter Olotka Reply-To: xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx To: Jeff Hoover Subject: Re: Dune Rules Questions Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 19:39:21 -0400 Here you go Jeff - these are IMHO for what it is worth. these are good - we will consider them when we beat hasbro into republishing DUNE - that may be a bit because we can't even beat them into paying our two years worth of royalties from the French version - which they 'can't find' since they took over AM Peter Jeff Hoover wrote: > Peter, > here goes. I know there's a lot. Thanks again for looking at these. > > Jeff > > 1. Under 6.a.5 on the Player Aid Pad, may a player play a Karama card to > make another player's treachery card purchase be at no charge? No > > > 2. Under 6.a.5 on the Player Aid Pad, when playing a Karama card to bid for > and buy a card without paying for it, is the players bid bound by the number > of spice s/he has, or can s/he bid more than s/he has? > more there is no limit - otherwise if you had no spice you couldn't use it > > 3. Under 6.a.6 on the Player Aid Pad, may a player play a Karama card to > cause another's shipment to be paid to the bank at Guild cost (half rate)? No > > > 4. In 6.a.1 on the Player Aid Pad, what does "prevents Atr. from seeing the > future" include besides what Q/A XXV.A.4 says about blocking viewing of all > cards up for bid? Looking at the top card of the spice deck? Looking at a > component of the battle plan? All are considers seeing the future - you can stop one of them. > Can a player not involved in the battle in > question block Atr from looking at a battle plan anyhow? Yes > > > 5 In 6.a.1-4 on the Player Aid Pad, when a Karama card 'prevents' an action, > must the card be played before the action occurs or can it be played after > the action is announced? For instance: > + Atreides says "Show me your leader" and I play Karama and say "I don't > think so" but if Atreides says "Show me your weapon" I won't bother to play > my card? Or do I have to play the card at the beginning of the battle and > say: "In this battle I'm preventing Atr from seeing the future?" > After Atredies decides then you can say fuggetaboutit > > 6. This came up in a game I recently played: Can a TruthTrance be used to > ask "If I move tokens into Arrakeen this turn, will you attack Tuek's Seitch > on your shipping/movement?" or other questions about the future or > intentions? If yes, can a player say "I can't say yes or no"? What happens > to the card then? Is it wasted or does the player keep it? I a player > answers a "Do you intend to..." question yes, is s/he bound to it? What > about answering yes to a "Will you..." question"? > It has to be will - if its intent then the other guy can weasle out. Asked player must commit to the action and the card forces that player to choose YES or NO and stick to it. A player can not say I don't know - it the question is hypothetically answerable by Yes or No > > 7. Another one from a recent game: A player deliberatelty plays Lasegun and > shield in a battle, intending to cause the explosion, but his leader is in > his opponent's pay as a traitor. Is the explosion averted by the traitor > being exposed? it blows it UP traitor or not > > > 8. Can the Hajr card be used to move another player's tokens or only the > tokens of the player playing the card? no > > > 9. Can the Ghola card be used to revive a leader or tokens belonging to > another player or only those of the player playing the card? If the answer > is anyone, do the tokens/leader go into the the card player's reserves or > the reserves of the player whose color they are? no - only the owner of the card > > > 10. In rule 3.E.2, in a game with less than 6 players, are traitors drawn > from all 30 leader disks or only from the leader disks of the players > actually in that game? only those actually in game > > > 11. In a longer game but when the treachery deck runs out, should it be > shuffled, or when cards are discarded are they gone forever? (Obviously > weather control stays on the board when played, so it's not shuffled.) reshuffle > > > 12. In Rule IX.B, must all players revive tokens before the first player > ships/moves, or can I wait to revive based on what players before me ship or > move? > all must revive > > 13. Can weather control be played after the normal storm movement has been > revealed, or must it be announced before the normal movement has been > revealed? > before storm is dialed > > 14. Does a Guild/Fremen alliance allow fremen to ship tokens off-planet? If > yes, do those tokens have to be shipped back on-planet for spice, or can > they come in within 2 territories of the Great Flat? > no > > 15. Do the Fremen have to bring their tokens onto the board within 2 > territories of the Great Flat and in a territory on the equator, given that > they are supposed to be coming from the the “back side” of Arrakis, or > would, for example, the polar sink be a legal “shipment” for Fremen? > Polar sink is OK ============================================================================================== From: "Jeff Hoover" To: xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx Subject: Re: Dune Rules Questions Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 01:19:13 -0400 Peter, Thanks for the answers! If you don't mind, I'd like to follow-up on a couple of your answers. > > 2. Under 6.a.5 on the Player Aid Pad, when playing a Karama card to bid for > and buy a card without paying for it, is the players bid bound by the number > of spice s/he has, or can s/he bid more than s/he has? > more there is no limit - otherwise if you had no spice you couldn't use it What if 2 players each have a Karama and each want to use it to buy the card? > > 8. Can the Hajr card be used to move another player's tokens or only the > tokens of the player playing the card? no I assume you mean "no, only the tokens of the player playing the card" > > 14. Does a Guild/Fremen alliance allow fremen to ship tokens off-planet? If > yes, do those tokens have to be shipped back on-planet for spice, or can > they come in within 2 territories of the Great Flat? > no I forgot to ask these parts: Does a Guild/Fremen alliance allow fremen to ship tokens from one territory to another or from reserves to any territory? ============================================================================================== From: Peter Olotka Reply-To: xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx To: Jeff Hoover Subject: Re: Dune Rules Questions Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 09:04:49 -0400 Jeff Hoover wrote: > Peter, > Thanks for the answers! Do you really think Hasbro will ever republish it? > > If you don't mind, I'd like to follow-up on a couple of your answers. > > > > > > > 2. Under 6.a.5 on the Player Aid Pad, when playing a Karama card to bid > >for > > > and buy a card without paying for it, is the players bid bound by the > >number > > > of spice s/he has, or can s/he bid more than s/he has? > > > > > > >more there is no limit - otherwise if you had no spice you couldn't use it > > What if 2 players each have a Karama and each want to use it to buy the > card? Hmm - uncharted territory, lets create new law. In this event each player secretly holds 1 or 2 spice in hand - calls odds or evens and both open hands. Winner gets the card in question. (Spice may be borrowed from the box if one player is out.) Note: It will be apparant that both have Karama cards if the bidding gets beyond reality. > > > > > > > > 8. Can the Hajr card be used to move another player's tokens or only the > > > tokens of the player playing the card? > > > >no > I assume you mean "no, only the tokens of the player playing the card" > That is correct. None of the cards were intended to be used on behalf of another player. > > > > > > > 14. Does a Guild/Fremen alliance allow fremen to ship tokens off-planet? > >If > > > yes, do those tokens have to be shipped back on-planet for spice, or can > > > they come in within 2 territories of the Great Flat? > > > > > > >no > I forgot to ask these parts: > Does a Guild/Fremen alliance allow fremen to ship tokens from one territory > to another or from reserves to any territory? Yes - and it appears that this would allow the fremen to ship off planet to reserves - since as an ally of the guild you are entitled to ship from any one territory to reserves - just as the guild can do. ============================================================================================== From: "Jeff Hoover" To: hoovman2000@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Dune Rules Questions Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 11:37:32 -0400 > > What if 2 players each have a Karama and each want to use it to buy the card? > >Hmm - uncharted territory, lets create new law. In this event each player >secretly holds 1 or 2 spice in hand - calls odds or evens and both open hands. >Winner gets the card in question. (Spice may be borrowed from the box if one >player is out.) Note: It will be apparant that both have Karama cards if the >bidding gets beyond reality. I have to say even/odd leaves a bad taste in my mouth. An alternative would be to require players to announce their intention to use the Karama and the first player to do so would win it. I'm not sure I like that much better, though. Many groups interpret the Karama bid/purchase rule in conjunction with the "no player may bid more spice that s/he has" rule and sacrifice this particular use of a Karama for a spiceless player. > > Does a Guild/Fremen alliance allow fremen to ship tokens from one territory >> to another or from reserves to any territory? > >Yes - and it appears that this would allow the fremen to ship off planet to >reserves - since as an ally of the guild you are entitled to ship from any one >territory to reserves - just as the guild can do. To further clarify: Fremen could ship to reserve and then walk the same tokens onto the board at no cost per their character shield? Thanks, Jeff P.S. Thanks for desiging Dune. I've really enjoyed it all these years. ============================================================================================== From: Peter Olotka Reply-To: xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx To: Jeff Hoover Subject: Re: Dune Rules Questions Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 12:23:17 -0400 Jeff Hoover wrote: > > > > What if 2 players each have a Karama and each want to use it to buy the > >card? > > > >Hmm - uncharted territory, lets create new law. In this event each player > >secretly holds 1 or 2 spice in hand - calls odds or evens and both open > >hands. > >Winner gets the card in question. (Spice may be borrowed from the box if > >one > >player is out.) Note: It will be apparant that both have Karama cards if > >the > >bidding gets beyond reality. > > I have to say even/odd leaves a bad taste in my mouth. An alternative would > be to require players to announce their intention to use the Karama and the > first player to do so would win it. I'm not sure I like that much better, > though. Many groups interpret the Karama bid/purchase rule in conjunction > with the "no player may bid more spice that s/he has" rule and sacrifice > this particular use of a Karama for a spiceless player. > House rules prevail - one could limit it to the spice you have. > > > > Does a Guild/Fremen alliance allow fremen to ship tokens from one > >territory > > > to another or from reserves to any territory? It shares the Guild's abilities in ship ment > > > > >Yes - and it appears that this would allow the fremen to ship off planet to > >reserves - since as an ally of the guild you are entitled to ship from any > >one > >territory to reserves - just as the guild can do. > > To further clarify: Fremen could ship to reserve and then walk the same > tokens onto the board at no cost per their character shield? Yes ==============================================================================================